The dual capacity of Christ. (Does God Suffer?)
Yesterday I asked the question "Does God suffer?"
Well, its funny I got two arguments that slightly fell on both sides of the issue. They weren't concretely yes and no but leaned in both those directions. Our class also did the same thing.
Both Kathryn and Janet were right in certain things they said.
Kathryn is correct in saying that Christ can suffer. The reason that is true is because he is both 100% man and 100% divine.
Why did Jesus need both natures? Adam was a man. Adam sinned. God rejected man because of sin. The relationship was broken and as heirs of the first man we all are condemned to death as everyone is born in sin. How can we gain access to God again?
Only a perfect and innocent man can atone for our sin. The problem is that man can never be without sin.
Can God pay the price for our sin? No. He is completely righteouss and holy and it is not his penalty to pay.
Whats the solution? The incarnation. The son, the second person in the trinity, comes to earth in the flesh and becomes man to die for our sin and pay the penalty for us and being fully God he is capable of living without sin and thus meets the requirements of God.
Why did I have to go through all this?
Because Kathryn mentioned John 11:35 and Christ's sharing of our pain and suffering. This is true. Christ was man. He was tempted, he hurt, he was in agony, he cried with us. He met us in our pain and he did this out of love but also out of necessity for our redemption and salvation. He understood and experienced suffering. If not then that would mean his death on the cross meant nothing to us because he didnt truly relate to our humanity.
The question then turns to God the Father.
Can or did God the Father suffer?
Here was my answer in class.
I said that God the Father cannot suffer. That the incarnated Christ in his humanity suffered for our sins and related to all of humanity. But to say that God the father suffered puts Him in a box. As finite creatures we are attempting to encompass the infinite God.
God is sovereign and omnipotent and he cannot be restrained by anything.
Look at it from another angle. Due to Gods nature there are certain things God cannot do. He cannot be unfaithful, he cannot die, he cannot lie, he cannot deny himself, and he cannot sin. Where does suffering come from? It is a consequence of sin. What is suffering? It is a force outside our control. Can God ever be out of control? The answer is no.
God is completely and utterly holy and righteous and cannot be associated with sin or its consequences - suffering.
A classmate pointed out that is why Jesus cried out on the cross, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Jesus was enduring the curse of Gods judgment on sin - the full, furious and dreadful wrath of the Almighty God. And God being holy and rigtheous could have nothing to do with sin.
Through the incarnation of Christ and his death and suffering for us we gain a great high priest who can sympathize with suffering because He went through it. Hebrews 4:14.
In conclusion, we can say the following. One member of the trinity died in the flesh for us. Christ died and suffered according to his human nature but that he had the dual capacity to be both divine and human.
Karl Barth said the following,"God who co-suffers makes him co-dependent and a weakling."
I have no idea if I have communicated what I've learned coherently or not.
Does that make sense? And if so, how does that conclusion make you feel?
posted by Jordan @ 5:54 PM
4 comments
4 Comments:
I don't think God suffers but I do think he feels sad bc of how the world is. He has feelings. He is kind and loving and giving. He feels our pain as does his son Jesus Christ. He feels for all of his children.
Thats just my thought!
So how do you, Karl Barth and your KJV prof deal with the one in many or the unity of the Trinity and their relationship to one another? As there is One true God, and Christ has clearly suffered, haven’t all parts of the God-head suffered? Does the Father not suffer by the sacrifice of his very own Son? Does God not grieve over the countless examples of his people turning from him over and over again? What is the purpose of Hosea, but to show us the steadfastness, the longsuffering of a husband dealing with his unfaithful wife?
It would appear to me that we suffer due the consequence of sin as you said, but that God suffers due to his relationship with the sinner. This does not constrain God to a little box, but exemplifies his unfailing love and mercy. We suffer and so does our God, but not due to anything outside of His control. It is through his love.
Of course that’s just my opinion. I could be wrong.
Ok Jordan I agree with your explanation. Jeff brings up an interesting point and that's what I was trying to say or that is at least where I started feeling really confused, hense my probably confused answer....how do you reconcile those two things the relationship of the trinity and the concept of suffering?
well...first read my latest post and see if you feel more comfortable...second realize we are finite and cannot totally comprhend everything....
If God could feel suffering due to our suffering then why didnt he simply come down himself and die on the cross? He couldnt atone for sin for himself, humans needed to. That is the work of the incarnation of Christ. Christ in his dual capacity as human and divine died and suffered so we could be reconciled to God. Why would God forsake his very own son, Jesus yelled it out. Why wouldnt God suffer with Jesus as he suffered? Why? Because he is impassible. He cannot suffer, He is supreme, he is God. Does anyone know how the trinity works?
No. It is a mystery, we have no earthly comparison or illustration to understand the trinity. The are all united together but they are all separate as well.
3 Persons in One. All we can say is that Christ died and felt our suffering as one member of the trinity. The Holy Spirit didnt die on the cross and neither did God the Father.
Does that make it any clearer?
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